TW: pedophilia mention, rape mention, mass suicide, discussion of cults
The Thinking Aro found my last post about homophobia in the aro and ace communities, including my criticism of their (her, that is - she no longer identifies as nonbinary or butch) articles on gay Christians. She's written a response to it...and I think that's a good thing. I can appreciate some discourse.
I've read and enjoyed several of The Thinking Aro's posts before, despite what she seems to believe. I cited her posts on the word queerplatonic and why it's okay to fit aromantic stereotypes when I wrote my guide on what to do when your loved one comes out as aro. I also think she's made several excellent points about amatonormativity, which I definitely value as a grayromantic. Here are some that I particularly liked: this one about internalized amatonormativity and how even many aros don't realize that a friendship can be a committed, intimate, spiritual, emotional, sensual, primary nonromantic relationship, this one criticizing cupioromanticism, and this one on platonic kissing. I began reading her blog periodically a few months ago, and I continue to do so for that reason.
But so much of the time, when she brings up SGA people in any way, I can't help but cringe at her apparent naivete on SGA politics beyond our marginalization by Christian supremacy. While I'm not able to find the exact post at the moment, I seem to recall a time when she said something along the lines of (and I could be mistaken) "as a celibate asexual, I see only asexuality, graysexuality, and allosexuality." For me, this brings to mind all the moments when I've seen an aro or ace assume that allo privilege exists. I can't help but wonder how many other SGA aros and aces have read her posts and thought the same thing.
That said, I'm going to analyze her response to my post.
In the first paragraph:
"I actually think they’re right in their criticisms, for the most part."
Well damn, I should be considering that I have actually been an SGA Catholic* who has dealt with homophobia from other Christians - my family and childhood best friend included - and made to feel, by Christians, as though I should have to justify my existence and my right to exercise sexual agency. My criticisms come from experience.
"I apologize to the lesbian community for considering political lesbianism a valid identity or idea in the past."
Good. I'm glad you apologized, Marie. But I'm not a lesbian, and I don't feel that I should be the one telling you that your apology is accepted or that you're forgiven.
That said, I've heard of lesbians accepting bisexual women who are repulsed by men into their community. I've also heard of Kinsey fives identifying as gay instead of bisexual (as outdated as said scale is - really, it's a psychological test from the 1940s that tries to tell you how gay you are on a scale from zero to six. And it doesn't acknowledge graysexuality, romantic orientation, or nonbinary genders). Also, some lesbians date nonbinary women who also identify partially as men.
Those are probably the only acceptions to the 'women who are attracted to men can't be lesbians' rule, but you'd have to find a lesbian and ask. And, of course, even that one lesbian can't speak for her entire community. (I think that's the most frequently I've ever used the word lesbian in a single paragraph.)
"I’m going to guess, based on the A Team’s post, that none of the bloggers are Christian or otherwise affiliated with a homophobic major religion, and that they don’t know any Christian adults who are gay and voluntarily in the Church."
Yeah...your guess was wrong. Both Frey and I - though I don't know about Cosima - grew up in Christian families. Frey lived in a small town below the Bible Belt as a child and went to a church that stressed heterosexuality as the only valid option (and was aversely affected by this, considering that they're DFAB, asexual, partly a woman, and have dated women. They've talked about this before on this blog). I was a very devout Catholic throughout my first two years of high school (I'm a high school senior) and I maintain strong ties to the Catholic Church today. I, too, have gay and bisexual Christian friends and relatives (including a gay uncle in his sixties and an adult family friend who is openly gay). While they've managed to reconcile religion and sexuality, I know they've also faced homophobia from other Christians.
"I was talking about adult Christians like Sarah and Lindsay (and those who I know in my personal life) who are open about the fact that they’re gay, who accept themselves as gay, and who choose to be celibate or to participate in straight relationships because of their faith."
I read what you wrote about them, and I don't see what they're doing as wrong. Not only are their personal lives none of my business, but they also don't seem to have internalized homophobia or warped beliefs about sexuality like so many other SGA Christians. As long as they're not trying to argue that their choice to remain celibate means anyone else should do the same, I see nothing wrong with what they're doing. That's why I didn't criticize them.
Unlike Sarah and Lindsay, the men on My Husband's Not Gay have a platform that includes millions of people. Sarah and Lindsay are just two bloggers out of millions - and honestly, I doubt many people even read their work. They don't seem to be any kind of big-name blogger, like Laci Green for example. There are people, most of whom are Christians, who are going to watch that show and use it as an excuse to demonize sexually active LGBT individuals - because if they can be celibate, if they can pretend to be straight, why can't we? Whether or not these men are actually trying to harm anyone or suggest that all LGBT individuals should live like straight people, their show has the potential to do a lot of harm.
If the men are deciding to stay married to women because they've been brainwashed into denying their sexuality, there unfortunately isn't anything I or anyone else can do about that.
I see Mormonism as a cult, and while I have no personal experience with cults I do have a teacher who does. When her cousin and his wife fell into one through their church (it's a long story involving some creep who called himself the Father and lured them in by telling them it was a Bible study), it ruined their lives. Her cousin quit his job and his wife's eating disorder relapsed after the Father played on her body image issues to make her feel vulnerable. The couple stayed in that cult until the Father told the man that God didn't want him to be with his wife - you guessed it, this predatory old man wanted the young woman for himself. The two ended up financially ruined, divorced, and miserable. It's been years and they're still trying to put their lives back together.
We talked about several other cults in that class (it was a religion class) and what I learned was horrifying. Listen to Leah Remini discuss her experiences with Scientology. Listen to the experiences of any ex-Mormon. Read about Heaven's Gate, or the mass suicide at Jonestown (you ever wonder where the saying 'don't drink the Kool-Aid' comes from? Now you know), or David Berg's abuse of young girls. Cults brainwash people. It's what they do, and when you try to leave you destroy everything good in your life.
I find it hard to believe that these men aren't motivated partly by fear. No matter how close they are to their wives, they have to stay with them even if they don't want to. Otherwise, they'll be cut off from everything and everyone they've ever loved and ex-communicated from a faith that they've belonged to their entire lives. Gay romance and gay sex won't cancel that out, you're right. But what I'm wondering is, how different would their lives have been today if they hadn't been in a situation where they'd ever had to make the choice to not have those things? Would they be happier, if they'd gotten to have both close, loving, intimate friendships and romantic-sexual relationships with people they were actually attracted to? I believe so.
The Thinking Aro found my last post about homophobia in the aro and ace communities, including my criticism of their (her, that is - she no longer identifies as nonbinary or butch) articles on gay Christians. She's written a response to it...and I think that's a good thing. I can appreciate some discourse.
I've read and enjoyed several of The Thinking Aro's posts before, despite what she seems to believe. I cited her posts on the word queerplatonic and why it's okay to fit aromantic stereotypes when I wrote my guide on what to do when your loved one comes out as aro. I also think she's made several excellent points about amatonormativity, which I definitely value as a grayromantic. Here are some that I particularly liked: this one about internalized amatonormativity and how even many aros don't realize that a friendship can be a committed, intimate, spiritual, emotional, sensual, primary nonromantic relationship, this one criticizing cupioromanticism, and this one on platonic kissing. I began reading her blog periodically a few months ago, and I continue to do so for that reason.
But so much of the time, when she brings up SGA people in any way, I can't help but cringe at her apparent naivete on SGA politics beyond our marginalization by Christian supremacy. While I'm not able to find the exact post at the moment, I seem to recall a time when she said something along the lines of (and I could be mistaken) "as a celibate asexual, I see only asexuality, graysexuality, and allosexuality." For me, this brings to mind all the moments when I've seen an aro or ace assume that allo privilege exists. I can't help but wonder how many other SGA aros and aces have read her posts and thought the same thing.
That said, I'm going to analyze her response to my post.
In the first paragraph:
"I actually think they’re right in their criticisms, for the most part."
Well damn, I should be considering that I have actually been an SGA Catholic* who has dealt with homophobia from other Christians - my family and childhood best friend included - and made to feel, by Christians, as though I should have to justify my existence and my right to exercise sexual agency. My criticisms come from experience.
"I apologize to the lesbian community for considering political lesbianism a valid identity or idea in the past."
Good. I'm glad you apologized, Marie. But I'm not a lesbian, and I don't feel that I should be the one telling you that your apology is accepted or that you're forgiven.
That said, I've heard of lesbians accepting bisexual women who are repulsed by men into their community. I've also heard of Kinsey fives identifying as gay instead of bisexual (as outdated as said scale is - really, it's a psychological test from the 1940s that tries to tell you how gay you are on a scale from zero to six. And it doesn't acknowledge graysexuality, romantic orientation, or nonbinary genders). Also, some lesbians date nonbinary women who also identify partially as men.
Those are probably the only acceptions to the 'women who are attracted to men can't be lesbians' rule, but you'd have to find a lesbian and ask. And, of course, even that one lesbian can't speak for her entire community. (I think that's the most frequently I've ever used the word lesbian in a single paragraph.)
"I’m going to guess, based on the A Team’s post, that none of the bloggers are Christian or otherwise affiliated with a homophobic major religion, and that they don’t know any Christian adults who are gay and voluntarily in the Church."
Yeah...your guess was wrong. Both Frey and I - though I don't know about Cosima - grew up in Christian families. Frey lived in a small town below the Bible Belt as a child and went to a church that stressed heterosexuality as the only valid option (and was aversely affected by this, considering that they're DFAB, asexual, partly a woman, and have dated women. They've talked about this before on this blog). I was a very devout Catholic throughout my first two years of high school (I'm a high school senior) and I maintain strong ties to the Catholic Church today. I, too, have gay and bisexual Christian friends and relatives (including a gay uncle in his sixties and an adult family friend who is openly gay). While they've managed to reconcile religion and sexuality, I know they've also faced homophobia from other Christians.
"I was talking about adult Christians like Sarah and Lindsay (and those who I know in my personal life) who are open about the fact that they’re gay, who accept themselves as gay, and who choose to be celibate or to participate in straight relationships because of their faith."
I read what you wrote about them, and I don't see what they're doing as wrong. Not only are their personal lives none of my business, but they also don't seem to have internalized homophobia or warped beliefs about sexuality like so many other SGA Christians. As long as they're not trying to argue that their choice to remain celibate means anyone else should do the same, I see nothing wrong with what they're doing. That's why I didn't criticize them.
Unlike Sarah and Lindsay, the men on My Husband's Not Gay have a platform that includes millions of people. Sarah and Lindsay are just two bloggers out of millions - and honestly, I doubt many people even read their work. They don't seem to be any kind of big-name blogger, like Laci Green for example. There are people, most of whom are Christians, who are going to watch that show and use it as an excuse to demonize sexually active LGBT individuals - because if they can be celibate, if they can pretend to be straight, why can't we? Whether or not these men are actually trying to harm anyone or suggest that all LGBT individuals should live like straight people, their show has the potential to do a lot of harm.
If the men are deciding to stay married to women because they've been brainwashed into denying their sexuality, there unfortunately isn't anything I or anyone else can do about that.
I see Mormonism as a cult, and while I have no personal experience with cults I do have a teacher who does. When her cousin and his wife fell into one through their church (it's a long story involving some creep who called himself the Father and lured them in by telling them it was a Bible study), it ruined their lives. Her cousin quit his job and his wife's eating disorder relapsed after the Father played on her body image issues to make her feel vulnerable. The couple stayed in that cult until the Father told the man that God didn't want him to be with his wife - you guessed it, this predatory old man wanted the young woman for himself. The two ended up financially ruined, divorced, and miserable. It's been years and they're still trying to put their lives back together.
We talked about several other cults in that class (it was a religion class) and what I learned was horrifying. Listen to Leah Remini discuss her experiences with Scientology. Listen to the experiences of any ex-Mormon. Read about Heaven's Gate, or the mass suicide at Jonestown (you ever wonder where the saying 'don't drink the Kool-Aid' comes from? Now you know), or David Berg's abuse of young girls. Cults brainwash people. It's what they do, and when you try to leave you destroy everything good in your life.
I find it hard to believe that these men aren't motivated partly by fear. No matter how close they are to their wives, they have to stay with them even if they don't want to. Otherwise, they'll be cut off from everything and everyone they've ever loved and ex-communicated from a faith that they've belonged to their entire lives. Gay romance and gay sex won't cancel that out, you're right. But what I'm wondering is, how different would their lives have been today if they hadn't been in a situation where they'd ever had to make the choice to not have those things? Would they be happier, if they'd gotten to have both close, loving, intimate friendships and romantic-sexual relationships with people they were actually attracted to? I believe so.
"We’re not having a conversation about involuntarily single romantics. We’re talking about gay Christians who sometimes choose to be celibate and/or single for life because of their faith. Their celibacy and/or singlehood is completely voluntary. Straight-partnered gay Christians are voluntarily in their heterosexual marriages or romantic relationships. Nobody forced them to make these choices, and nobody’s forcing them to be Christians in the first place. You may want to think that they’re only Christian now because they were raised in the Church since birth and you may want to believe that they only think God disapproves of gay sex and gay romance and gay marriage because they were taught that during their youth. But if you actually listen to or read what these people have to say, you’ll find that many of them believe in Christ freely and genuinely and, as intelligent and thoughtful adults, have made their own decisions about what to believe and how to live, without their parents or their pastors lording over them.
Of course friendship isn’t enough for the vast majority of alloromantics and even for demi- and gray-romantics. You think I was born yesterday? Have you not read my blog outside of these two posts you’re criticizing? I’m acutely aware of how romantic people and romantic society feel about friendship in comparison to romance. And clearly, if these gay Christians felt that God approved of gay sex and gay romance, they would be out there doing it and they wouldn’t “settle” for friendship-as-partnership. They would live the way non-religious allo* people do."
The passage that you're referencing here wasn't specifically about voluntarily nonamorous and celibate gay Christians or those choosing to marry people they're unable to be attracted to. It's more a general problem I'd noticed in the aro community.
Also, as I said, despite being adults, gay Christians in situations where they aren't able to pursue romantic-sexual relationships involving mutual attraction often do have their parents and pastors "lording over them". You seem perfectly aware that cishet Christian parents often reject their LGBTQ children and that LGBTQ Christians face ostracization from their social circles and religious communities; how don't you realize that this still affects adults? If they hadn't been dealing with that, they might still be Christians. Hell, they probably would be. But would they still be celibate or nonamorous? I doubt it.
Are they miserable? Probably not - as a nonamorous, romance-repulsed grayromantic who has never had sex, I know as well as anyone that there is so much more to life than sex and romance. But my choice to remain single is based on my own wants and desires. I was encouraged to date, but chose not to. At the same time, I believe that I might be happier if I had a nonromantic sexual partner because I still experience sexual attraction and still want sex - something that you're not able to relate to. My nonamory never had anything with pleasing anyone else. It was never religious or influenced by anything but my own happiness. What is the nonamory and celibacy of celibate, nonamorous gay Christians influenced by?
"As for why I felt the need to write about this subject at all, which you think I shouldn’t do because I’m not gay: I’m a celibate asexual, so the issue of celibacy and how this society talks about it and thinks about it is very much in my lane."
The issue of celibacy? Sure. That's in your lane. But there are celibate SGA people who could have tackled it just as easily. SGA asexual people exist as well. As a nonamorous gay grayromantic, I could have handled the topic of nonamorous gay people though not celibacy. Not only are all the people I listed also affected by societal discourse on celibacy and nonamory, we're affected by it as SGA people who prefer not to have sex and/or romance. A frank discussion on the lives and experiences of celibate or nonamorous gay people was very necesssary, but so many people could have handled that specific topic with a perspective that you're unable to offer. While celibacy, nonamory, and society's views on them both are indeed very much in your lane as a celibate aromantic asexual, those same things become out of your realm of experience when they're in reference to SGA people.
However, they're within mine. They're within the realm of experience of countless other SGA people.
Again, I feel I've had my say.
*I say that I'd been an SGA Catholic, rather than a gay Catholic, because I hadn't known about nonbinary genders, let alone identified with any of them, for almost all of the time I'd believed in Catholicism. I'm bisexual and I'd believed at that point that I was cis. I identify as both gay and bisexual now because my nonbinary identity means that even though I'm attracted to multiple genders, all the attraction I feel is, in some form, toward my same gender and therefore I am by definition gay.
Again, I feel I've had my say.
*I say that I'd been an SGA Catholic, rather than a gay Catholic, because I hadn't known about nonbinary genders, let alone identified with any of them, for almost all of the time I'd believed in Catholicism. I'm bisexual and I'd believed at that point that I was cis. I identify as both gay and bisexual now because my nonbinary identity means that even though I'm attracted to multiple genders, all the attraction I feel is, in some form, toward my same gender and therefore I am by definition gay.