CW: colonialism, white supremacy, abuse, fetishization, transphobia, intersexism, racism, misogyny, ableism, fatphobia, censored racial slur
Ettina of Abnormaldiversity has a new record: she's made two trash posts in a row. This one contains uncensored racial slurs (and Ettina is white), compares being gay to fetishizing marginalized people and objectifying women, and defends "person-oriented fetishes". It's called Fetishization, Attraction to Personal Characteristics, and Privilege.
The idea of someone having a specific attraction to people of a certain ethnicity, disabled people, transgender, intersex or nonbinary people, or people of a certain weight tends to be controversial, with many people describing it as wrong.
Well gee, that could be because:
But I haven't always been this thin, so I'm speaking more from past experience as someone who has weighed in, at my heaviest, at 196. And yes, as a bisexual nonbinary woman who has never been and probably never will be skinny, I do prefer bigger women.
And I know, both as a fat sapphic woman, as a fat woman who used to be fatter, and as a fat nonbinary person whose fat frequently causes them physical dysphoria, that even I need to be careful about my attraction to fat women. Because very frequently, when someone is attracted to a fat person, especially a fat woman, who is larger than they are, it's not totally based in seeing that person as beautiful and desirable. When thin people, especially thin cishet men, are attracted to me - though this was amplified 30 pounds ago - it's not because they value me as a person, an equal, and a potential sexual and romantic partner who is deserving of pleasure.
It's because they want to sexualize the curves those extra pounds have given me, while expressing distaste when my stomach jiggles. It's because fatness is feminized and being attracted to a fat woman allows them to conveniently forget that said fat woman isn't wholly a woman. Because they think being attracted to a fat woman, especially a gender nonconforming, bisexual fat woman, means that I'm so desperate and sexually insatiable that I'll go for anything. Because I should feel lucky that they are attracted to me, as if I don't deserve anything better. Because being attracted to fat people is seen as something forbidden and they get off on that. It's dehumanizing.
Which doesn't mean, of course, that no thin person ever should be attracted to fat people. It means that when I'm attracted to fat people specifically because they're fat, it's based in shared experiences, genuinely seeing fat women as beautiful and worthy of love, and rejecting fatphobic beauty standards. When thin people are attracted to fat people specifically because we're fat, when they form a pattern of being attracted to fat people, when they fetishize us, they're not seeing us as fully human.
And that, really, is why person-oriented fetishes are wrong. The object of a person-oriented fetish is not seen as fully human.
However, there is one type of person-specific attraction that is widely accepted, and generally seen as normal - gender-specific attraction. So, what makes it different? Is it just that monosexuality is the majority?
First of all, monosexual (and any variant thereof) is a really fucked-up word for a number of reasons.
It's cissexist. Lesbians and straight men are both "monosexual", but they can both be attracted to me, because I'm woman-aligned. But I'm also nonbinary, so I'm not totally the same gender as a cis or binary trans woman. Therefore, it's inaccurate to say that "monosexuals" are only attracted to one gender, which is what the term implies.
It's also homophobic, because it groups gay and straight people together on the axis of sexuality - the same axis on which straight people oppress gay people. It implies that gay people are inherently oppressive and that lesbians oppress bi men.
Second, considering that sga people are so frequently fetishized, it's also really fucked-up that you, an aroace, are comparing being gay to objectifying and being sexually predatory to marginalized people. I don't know what kind of liberal MOGAI radikweer trip you're on, Ettina, but equating gay people to sexual predators is not revolutionary. It's something right out of a Red Scare propaganda video on 'the gay agenda'.
they only want them for sex, which in our sex-shaming amatonormative society is seen as automatically implying exploitation
Our society is not "amatonormative". It's heteronormative. LGBT people are punished for our attraction, therefore we don't benefit from society prioritizing m/w romance.
Well, I can tell you with confidence that there are heterosexual men who fit every one of these traits with regards to their approach to women. And yet, misogynistic straight men aren't generally used to argue that women should only date men if they're multisexual. (And of course, bi/pan/etc men can be misogynistic too.) Nor have I heard many people claim that a man being heterosexual instead of bisexual is inherently misogynist.
Yeah, I agree with the sentiment that straight men are often predatory as fuck.
But first of all, considering that bi/pan men are already used as fetishes by straight women and that you're not mga, you really need to leave them the fuck out of this. Bisexual people are not your pawns or your tokens.
Second, if straight women specifically sought out bi men to date exclusively, they would be homophobic because they would be fetishizing bisexuality and using it as an excuse to sexually objectify mlm.
Third, you said "monosexuality" but you're now talking about straight men exclusively. "Monosexual" is a category that, uselessly, groups gay and straight people together. Yet gay people's experiences with single-gender attraction are wildly different than straight people's. Even straight women's experiences with single-gender attraction are wildly different than straight men's. Somehow, miraculously, most "monosexuals" manage to not be predatory and disrespectful when seeking a partner. So maybe, just maybe, for straight male sexual predators and sexual harassers, the issue isn't that they're "monosexual"...it's that they're straight men hopped up on privilege that allows them to get away with creepy, predatory behavior because of rape culture, misogyny, and homophobia (i.e. when a straight person is sexually predatory, straight people as a whole do not have their sexuality put on trial. The same does not apply to gay people). Because, I mean, when I'm interested in a woman, I still manage to be respectful of her personhood and sexual agency, so it really seems like attraction to women, in itself, is not the problem. I could be wrong but like...food for thought.
Just as there are straight men who objectify and stereotype women and straight men who treat women with respect, people with attractions dependent on other personal characteristics can have the same range of attitudes towards the people they're attracted to. Any time you have a relationship between partners who have different degrees of privilege afforded them by society, the more privileged partner could wind up using their privilege in ways that hurt their partner. It's not limited to those who have selective attractions.
What...is your point? Just being attracted to someone with less privilege than you doesn't mean you're fetishizing them. The problem is when, outside of being attracted to people of a specific gender alignment, you make a habit of being attracted to people with marginalized traits that you don't share, sexualizing them, harassing them, and generally treating them as subhuman.
Meanwhile, aromantic allosexual people can be respectful to their sexual partners, using clear boundaries and honest discussion of feelings to avoid implying a different kind of relationship than what they are truly seeking.
Wow, you'd think that having so much respect and affection for "allosexual" aros would mean you'd respect their boundaries by not calling them allosexual. Guess not.
So the problems with person-directed fetishes aren't due to the fetish. They're due to racism, ableism, transphobia, fatphobia, and other types of discrimination. Prejudice doesn't cause person-directed fetishes, and having and acting on a person-directed fetish doesn't necessarily mean you're prejudiced.
The thing is, though, treating marginalized people as fetishes and sex objects is automatically discrimination. So yeah, "person-directed fetishes" are inherently problems.
And like anyone else, some people who are targets of person-directed fetishes will be prejudiced against fetishists.
Golly gosh, Ettina, why would I have prejudice against people who not only have privilege over me, but also dehumanize me and see me as a sex object, effectively perpetuating my oppression? It's not as if, because I'm a bi trans disabled person, there's virtually a 100% chance that I will be abused or sexually assaulted at some point and that fetishization of wlw, trans/nb people, and disabled people only heightens this probability.
In addition, having close ties of any kind to a stigmatized group can result in some of the stigma falling on you (eg "n*gger lovers").
In your original post, Ettina, the N-word hadn't been censored. Considering that you apparently think black men are uniquely sexually predatory (because why else would you point out the race of a black boy who had sexually harassed you, an innocent helpless white woman, when his blackness had nothing to do with it?), I really shouldn't be surprised.
Second...sure, being an ally to marginalized people can be hard sometimes. But when I'm confronted by homophobia and transphobia, I feel much safer letting people think I'm a cishet or cis aroace woman than coming out as bi or nonbinary.
Sure, other non-LGBT people might give someone like that shit for being an ally against homophobia and transphobia, but at the end of the day? Homophobia and transphobia will not harm that person. At the end of the day, they are able to shed that allyship, to stop talking about LGBT liberation, and they will not be negatively impacted in any way. At the end of the day, a cishet woman is able to leave Pride and go home to her cishet boyfriend and live her happy little cishet life, because it's not her humanity, freedom, and civil rights that have been put up for debate. Other cishet women will not sexually harass her or avoid her in locker rooms for being an ally. She won't lose her job for being an ally. She's not more likely to be abused or sexually assaulted for being an ally. She'll still be able to have her wedding in whatever venue she wants. She'll still be able to use public bathrooms without fearing for her safety. Her family won't disown her for being an ally. She might be teased, but she will still be straight and she will still be cis. At the end of the day, that's what people care about.
And maybe that cishet boyfriend isn't cishet. Maybe people tell her to "get a real man". Maybe people tell her that her bi/pan boyfriend will leave her. Maybe she can't get married because her trans boyfriend has an F on his ID. Maybe someone mistakes her for bi or pan because her partner is nonbinary. All of this might hurt her feelings, but she is still able to leave that relationship because it's not about her. She can cut all ties to the LGBT community and be just fine, but her partner will be oppressed for their entire life.
Or if a cishet man is dating me, he might be razzed a bit because his datemate looks too androgynous and uses they/he pronouns and is bisexual and because he has a datemate instead of a girlfriend, but it's not about him. He could break up with me, date a woman who is closer to what his cishet peers expect of him. I can't escape the stigma associated with being bi and nonbinary, no matter who I'm dating.
So given that, am I supposed to...what? Be happy when cishet men think it's hot that I'm nonbinary? Fawn at their feet when they think dating me is going to be like something out of a m/f/f threesome porn video? Be awed that he would deign to fuck a disabled fat woman? Allow myself to be reduced to inspiration porn? Am I supposed to feel sorry for them, that they're willing to date someone so stigmatized?
What about when I'm on the other side of that, when I'm the one in the position of privilege being ostracized for speaking positively about #BlackLivesMatter or supporting hijabis or advocating for the poor? When I'm having uncomfortable but necessary conversations about privilege with other middle-class white people? I might be momentarily inconvenienced and angered by their racism and classism, but after I walk away from that conversation, I become just another white person from a privileged, middle-class background, who is very easily able to be quiet about racial and class justice because I'm not the one being oppressed. I'm not the one whose safety is at risk from police brutality and white supremacy.
So no, I don't really give a shit about privileged kinksters who "have some of the stigma falling on them because they maintain close ties to an oppressed group" because of their fetishization of LGBT people, or people of color, or disabled people, or fat people, or intersex people. That stigma will go away for them. They are able to make it go away, while the rest of us are screwed for the rest of our lives.
Ettina of Abnormaldiversity has a new record: she's made two trash posts in a row. This one contains uncensored racial slurs (and Ettina is white), compares being gay to fetishizing marginalized people and objectifying women, and defends "person-oriented fetishes". It's called Fetishization, Attraction to Personal Characteristics, and Privilege.
The idea of someone having a specific attraction to people of a certain ethnicity, disabled people, transgender, intersex or nonbinary people, or people of a certain weight tends to be controversial, with many people describing it as wrong.
Well gee, that could be because:
- Pornographic fetishization of intersex and trans/nb people has been used to promote the idea that we aren't really the genders we say we are, to dehumanize us, and to excuse violence against us (i.e. the false idea that a trans woman and a cis man having sex is gay or that the trans woman is being deceptive by not immediately telling him she's trans). I've also had cis lesbians fetishize me by equating my visibly nonbinary traits to cis butchness and act as if afab nonbinary people are cis women lite, and cishet men fetishize me and co-opt my oppression - on the axes of homophobia and transphobia simultaneously, at that - by acting as if I'm completely gender neutral and being attracted to a nonbinary person specifically because he's nonbinary automatically makes them bisexual when really identifying that way for being attracted to me just makes them a biphobe (well, more than usual - as straight people, cishet men are already socialized to be biphobic) and a chaser
- Sexualization of traits common or stereotypically associated with people of color, especially women of color, has historically been used to excuse white supremacist violence and dehumanization against them (i.e. slave women being raped by white plantation owners) and is also a major factor in sexual assault against women of color today.
- Fetishization of developmentally disabled and mentally ill women is rooted in ableist violence and psychiatric abuse involving us and our foremothers being taken advantage of by neurotypical caretakers. Even today, fetishization of autistic woman is used to rape and abuse us at far higher rates than neurotypical women.
- As for fat shaming? Look, currently there aren't any people of color on the team (so, LGBT PoC, if you're interested please sign up), which is why I felt okay writing about sexual racism - the other mods are no more qualified to do it than I am. And if someone on the team wasn't white, if Safia had been hired (when asked, she said she was too stressed out to take on something else) or Cosima was still here, I would defer to them. But unfortunately I don't have that choice right now.
But I haven't always been this thin, so I'm speaking more from past experience as someone who has weighed in, at my heaviest, at 196. And yes, as a bisexual nonbinary woman who has never been and probably never will be skinny, I do prefer bigger women.
And I know, both as a fat sapphic woman, as a fat woman who used to be fatter, and as a fat nonbinary person whose fat frequently causes them physical dysphoria, that even I need to be careful about my attraction to fat women. Because very frequently, when someone is attracted to a fat person, especially a fat woman, who is larger than they are, it's not totally based in seeing that person as beautiful and desirable. When thin people, especially thin cishet men, are attracted to me - though this was amplified 30 pounds ago - it's not because they value me as a person, an equal, and a potential sexual and romantic partner who is deserving of pleasure.
It's because they want to sexualize the curves those extra pounds have given me, while expressing distaste when my stomach jiggles. It's because fatness is feminized and being attracted to a fat woman allows them to conveniently forget that said fat woman isn't wholly a woman. Because they think being attracted to a fat woman, especially a gender nonconforming, bisexual fat woman, means that I'm so desperate and sexually insatiable that I'll go for anything. Because I should feel lucky that they are attracted to me, as if I don't deserve anything better. Because being attracted to fat people is seen as something forbidden and they get off on that. It's dehumanizing.
Which doesn't mean, of course, that no thin person ever should be attracted to fat people. It means that when I'm attracted to fat people specifically because they're fat, it's based in shared experiences, genuinely seeing fat women as beautiful and worthy of love, and rejecting fatphobic beauty standards. When thin people are attracted to fat people specifically because we're fat, when they form a pattern of being attracted to fat people, when they fetishize us, they're not seeing us as fully human.
And that, really, is why person-oriented fetishes are wrong. The object of a person-oriented fetish is not seen as fully human.
However, there is one type of person-specific attraction that is widely accepted, and generally seen as normal - gender-specific attraction. So, what makes it different? Is it just that monosexuality is the majority?
First of all, monosexual (and any variant thereof) is a really fucked-up word for a number of reasons.
It's cissexist. Lesbians and straight men are both "monosexual", but they can both be attracted to me, because I'm woman-aligned. But I'm also nonbinary, so I'm not totally the same gender as a cis or binary trans woman. Therefore, it's inaccurate to say that "monosexuals" are only attracted to one gender, which is what the term implies.
It's also homophobic, because it groups gay and straight people together on the axis of sexuality - the same axis on which straight people oppress gay people. It implies that gay people are inherently oppressive and that lesbians oppress bi men.
Second, considering that sga people are so frequently fetishized, it's also really fucked-up that you, an aroace, are comparing being gay to objectifying and being sexually predatory to marginalized people. I don't know what kind of liberal MOGAI radikweer trip you're on, Ettina, but equating gay people to sexual predators is not revolutionary. It's something right out of a Red Scare propaganda video on 'the gay agenda'.
they only want them for sex, which in our sex-shaming amatonormative society is seen as automatically implying exploitation
Our society is not "amatonormative". It's heteronormative. LGBT people are punished for our attraction, therefore we don't benefit from society prioritizing m/w romance.
Well, I can tell you with confidence that there are heterosexual men who fit every one of these traits with regards to their approach to women. And yet, misogynistic straight men aren't generally used to argue that women should only date men if they're multisexual. (And of course, bi/pan/etc men can be misogynistic too.) Nor have I heard many people claim that a man being heterosexual instead of bisexual is inherently misogynist.
Yeah, I agree with the sentiment that straight men are often predatory as fuck.
But first of all, considering that bi/pan men are already used as fetishes by straight women and that you're not mga, you really need to leave them the fuck out of this. Bisexual people are not your pawns or your tokens.
Second, if straight women specifically sought out bi men to date exclusively, they would be homophobic because they would be fetishizing bisexuality and using it as an excuse to sexually objectify mlm.
Third, you said "monosexuality" but you're now talking about straight men exclusively. "Monosexual" is a category that, uselessly, groups gay and straight people together. Yet gay people's experiences with single-gender attraction are wildly different than straight people's. Even straight women's experiences with single-gender attraction are wildly different than straight men's. Somehow, miraculously, most "monosexuals" manage to not be predatory and disrespectful when seeking a partner. So maybe, just maybe, for straight male sexual predators and sexual harassers, the issue isn't that they're "monosexual"...it's that they're straight men hopped up on privilege that allows them to get away with creepy, predatory behavior because of rape culture, misogyny, and homophobia (i.e. when a straight person is sexually predatory, straight people as a whole do not have their sexuality put on trial. The same does not apply to gay people). Because, I mean, when I'm interested in a woman, I still manage to be respectful of her personhood and sexual agency, so it really seems like attraction to women, in itself, is not the problem. I could be wrong but like...food for thought.
Just as there are straight men who objectify and stereotype women and straight men who treat women with respect, people with attractions dependent on other personal characteristics can have the same range of attitudes towards the people they're attracted to. Any time you have a relationship between partners who have different degrees of privilege afforded them by society, the more privileged partner could wind up using their privilege in ways that hurt their partner. It's not limited to those who have selective attractions.
What...is your point? Just being attracted to someone with less privilege than you doesn't mean you're fetishizing them. The problem is when, outside of being attracted to people of a specific gender alignment, you make a habit of being attracted to people with marginalized traits that you don't share, sexualizing them, harassing them, and generally treating them as subhuman.
Meanwhile, aromantic allosexual people can be respectful to their sexual partners, using clear boundaries and honest discussion of feelings to avoid implying a different kind of relationship than what they are truly seeking.
Wow, you'd think that having so much respect and affection for "allosexual" aros would mean you'd respect their boundaries by not calling them allosexual. Guess not.
So the problems with person-directed fetishes aren't due to the fetish. They're due to racism, ableism, transphobia, fatphobia, and other types of discrimination. Prejudice doesn't cause person-directed fetishes, and having and acting on a person-directed fetish doesn't necessarily mean you're prejudiced.
The thing is, though, treating marginalized people as fetishes and sex objects is automatically discrimination. So yeah, "person-directed fetishes" are inherently problems.
And like anyone else, some people who are targets of person-directed fetishes will be prejudiced against fetishists.
Golly gosh, Ettina, why would I have prejudice against people who not only have privilege over me, but also dehumanize me and see me as a sex object, effectively perpetuating my oppression? It's not as if, because I'm a bi trans disabled person, there's virtually a 100% chance that I will be abused or sexually assaulted at some point and that fetishization of wlw, trans/nb people, and disabled people only heightens this probability.
In addition, having close ties of any kind to a stigmatized group can result in some of the stigma falling on you (eg "n*gger lovers").
In your original post, Ettina, the N-word hadn't been censored. Considering that you apparently think black men are uniquely sexually predatory (because why else would you point out the race of a black boy who had sexually harassed you, an innocent helpless white woman, when his blackness had nothing to do with it?), I really shouldn't be surprised.
Second...sure, being an ally to marginalized people can be hard sometimes. But when I'm confronted by homophobia and transphobia, I feel much safer letting people think I'm a cishet or cis aroace woman than coming out as bi or nonbinary.
Sure, other non-LGBT people might give someone like that shit for being an ally against homophobia and transphobia, but at the end of the day? Homophobia and transphobia will not harm that person. At the end of the day, they are able to shed that allyship, to stop talking about LGBT liberation, and they will not be negatively impacted in any way. At the end of the day, a cishet woman is able to leave Pride and go home to her cishet boyfriend and live her happy little cishet life, because it's not her humanity, freedom, and civil rights that have been put up for debate. Other cishet women will not sexually harass her or avoid her in locker rooms for being an ally. She won't lose her job for being an ally. She's not more likely to be abused or sexually assaulted for being an ally. She'll still be able to have her wedding in whatever venue she wants. She'll still be able to use public bathrooms without fearing for her safety. Her family won't disown her for being an ally. She might be teased, but she will still be straight and she will still be cis. At the end of the day, that's what people care about.
And maybe that cishet boyfriend isn't cishet. Maybe people tell her to "get a real man". Maybe people tell her that her bi/pan boyfriend will leave her. Maybe she can't get married because her trans boyfriend has an F on his ID. Maybe someone mistakes her for bi or pan because her partner is nonbinary. All of this might hurt her feelings, but she is still able to leave that relationship because it's not about her. She can cut all ties to the LGBT community and be just fine, but her partner will be oppressed for their entire life.
Or if a cishet man is dating me, he might be razzed a bit because his datemate looks too androgynous and uses they/he pronouns and is bisexual and because he has a datemate instead of a girlfriend, but it's not about him. He could break up with me, date a woman who is closer to what his cishet peers expect of him. I can't escape the stigma associated with being bi and nonbinary, no matter who I'm dating.
So given that, am I supposed to...what? Be happy when cishet men think it's hot that I'm nonbinary? Fawn at their feet when they think dating me is going to be like something out of a m/f/f threesome porn video? Be awed that he would deign to fuck a disabled fat woman? Allow myself to be reduced to inspiration porn? Am I supposed to feel sorry for them, that they're willing to date someone so stigmatized?
What about when I'm on the other side of that, when I'm the one in the position of privilege being ostracized for speaking positively about #BlackLivesMatter or supporting hijabis or advocating for the poor? When I'm having uncomfortable but necessary conversations about privilege with other middle-class white people? I might be momentarily inconvenienced and angered by their racism and classism, but after I walk away from that conversation, I become just another white person from a privileged, middle-class background, who is very easily able to be quiet about racial and class justice because I'm not the one being oppressed. I'm not the one whose safety is at risk from police brutality and white supremacy.
So no, I don't really give a shit about privileged kinksters who "have some of the stigma falling on them because they maintain close ties to an oppressed group" because of their fetishization of LGBT people, or people of color, or disabled people, or fat people, or intersex people. That stigma will go away for them. They are able to make it go away, while the rest of us are screwed for the rest of our lives.